Karen Lee: Welcome to Intellectual Property Matters. In this WIPO podcast, we explore the fascinating world of creativity, innovation and intellectual property. Let's listen, learn, and get inspired.
Natalie Humsi: Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's episode of Classroom Conversations, a WIPO Academy series, and I'm joined today by Professor Pedro Marcos Nunes Barbosa, a WIPO Academy intellectual property (IP) expert, the leading partner of Denis Borges Barbosa Advogados, and Professor of Law at the Pontifical Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro.
Pedro has hired many IP lawyers and non-lawyers over the years and has helped many jumpstart their careers in the field of intellectual property, or IP for short. So today he'll be giving our listeners advice from a hiring manager on how to build an IP career, how to get into academia or a law firm in this field, and other tips based on his wisdom and experiences.
Thank you so much Pedro for joining us today, so how did you start out in the IP field, actually?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: So, first of all, I had the luck of being the second generation of IP attorneys and professors since my father was also a scholar in the IP field. So having this kind of a genetic interest for IP is, undoubtedly, a reason that I have proceeded with this career. But even for those that do not have the same chance (or luck) of being the second or third generation of attorneys or professors in the IP field, I would say that it was really important for my career, as soon as I started law school in Brazil to have an internship experience.
So in Brazil, we have a five year period (ten semesters) of law school, and in my second semester, I started in an internship in the law firm of which today I am a leading partner. But at that time, I was just a young intern, and one of the fields that I worked in during this first internship experience was IP law. Actually, just as important as working in IP, was the fact that I interned in other fields of law as well that are not perhaps directly linked to the day-by-day basis of IP law, but have some kind of dialogue with IP. This is especially true in the litigation part of the IP, since I worked with civil law and civil procedural law.
So in Brazil, internships in law are usually up to six hours a day, five days a week type of work experience. Just as I had a very interesting theoretical experience in law school, I had a very pragmatic experience with IP in the first law firm that I worked in as an intern. And after that, in starting a career with IP, since IP has this multi-disciplinary aspect, I had worked with labor law, with tax law, with administrative law and with other areas that in a way or another will connect to IP. So, I would say that the start of my IP career was treating IP as an important area, in addition to other areas of law.
Natalie Humsi: In your studies, did you specialize in IP, or was it just law in general and then you specialized in IP after your internship experience?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Well, in Brazil, technically what we call a “specialization” course occurs after the law school. Therefore, after five years of the course in law, I had an extension in philosophy and a course for one year and a half specializing in IP at the same university where today I teach as a professor. So, I would say my specialization as an academic title came afterwards, but before that I had pragmatic experience as an intern and then as a trainee.
Natalie Humsi: You have two feet in the IP field, one in private sector, in the law firm, and the other one in academia, as a professor. So, you're getting a point of view from both sides. What do you notice between working in the field of IP in the private sector as opposed to academia for those who want to pursue different paths and different fields?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Talking with my colleagues that practice in the same area as I do, in academia and in law firms around the world, well, at least for most countries, teaching and having a purely academic experience in IP is usually very fulfilling, which is very important and very nice to work with. But in the academic fields one does not necessarily get the most generous paychecks.
Most people from the global South, usually when they work in academia, they work as attorneys as well. So, there is an important economic reason aside from other reasons as well, for why I enjoy having two different careers, because the private practicing of IP usually pays really good bucks and I can fight for interesting cases in the judiciary system. Therefore, I would say that working in these two quite different manners of approaching IP gives me a rather unique experience. Although, it's not uncommon to work with these two kinds of experiences, if you live in a South country like I do, like Brazil or the African countries or other countries around the world
Natalie Humsi: And so you started out as an intern in the law firm, which you're the leading partner of right now. So looking back, what do you think were the qualifications and experiences that helped you the most in getting to where you are now?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Since IP is strongly regulated by international law like the Berne Convention and the Paris Convention in the 19th century, and the TRIPS Agreement in the 20th century, one of the most important aspects of working with IP in academia or as an attorney is having domain of foreign languages. So I was lucky that in my school, before law school, I studied French and English as regular classes, and I had a kind of international formation in junior school.
Afterwards that became really helpful, because many of the best doctrines are not written necessarily in English. There are marvelous authors in Portuguese, French, Italian - that means Latin languages. And of course, many other authors that write perfectly about IP that published in German and in Chinese and Japanese, and although I do not speak Japanese, Chinese and German, usually I am quite lucky to access those kinds of doctrines and literature because it is quite a common feature for IP professors to write in English as well.
But many of the best books I have read about IP were written by, for example, the Italian authors Vicenzo Cataldo or Tullio Ascarelli, by the recently deceased professor from Angola in Africa, that taught in Portugal, José de Oliveira Ascensão. Or for example, in English by Roger Schechter or Paul Roubier, from France. So, I would say that a really important skill to work in academia or as an attorney of IP is having a domain of four, five, or even six languages, and especially languages from different branches like the Latin speaking languages or English or languages from Asia.
It's really important to have access to different cultures and different views on IP. Although most of the countries in the world participate in the same three international treaties I mentioned, which are the Paris and Berne Conventions, and the TRIPS.
Natalie Humsi: So, you started out as an intern and then eventually got to where you are as a partner. So the internship was kind of your foot in the door for your career in the law firm. How did you get the internship? What are the tips or tricks you can give listeners on how to get a good internship that can jumpstart their career, like it did for you?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: I have to be frank. My first internship, I got the opportunity because my father was the founding partner of the firm, so there is no merit in that. But my father did not assign me to work with him. He assigned me to work with the most demanding and rigorous partner of the law firm. Although I did not have an impartial manner to enter the firm, he wanted me to have the roughest treatment a young intern could have. But just as important as my first internship, were my second and third internships in different law offices of different sizes.
My first internship was in a boutique law firm, which is the law firm that I work in today. My second internship was in a medium-sized law firm, which I had known nobody for, and I was admitted in an unbiased manner of selection. And my third law firm was a huge labor law firm. And again, I did not know one of the partners and I got lucky during the entry exams to be selected as an intern.
So again, perhaps for every ten interviews I made in different law firms to fight for being an intern candidate, I was selected in one. Therefore, I was only approved in about 10% of all my attempts to enter a famous law firm. And when talking to colleagues that today work as leading partners in the firms that I was not selected to work as an intern in, and they are professors in the same university as me, well, generally it's quite hard for employees to have a perfect view of what is the ideal candidate and what will become an ideal candidate. This is a typical case of information asymmetry.
Sometimes candidates seem really interesting in intellectual formation at the start, but then you see that it does not correspond from their plans to reality. And sometimes candidates do not seem to be fantastic, but they demonstrate fantastic efforts, and go on to proceed in a better career. So I would say that after having the experience of failing in 90% of the attempts of internships in other law offices I applied for (and was not selected), it is important to be patient and to try again.
Natalie Humsi: That's a very good piece of advice there. On that note, what other pieces of advice would you give someone who is just starting out, you know, who maybe just graduated and is looking for a job in IP? Right now I guess we’re around summer time, so graduation is around the corner. So, these are questions that are on a lot of people's minds. So you said languages, be patient, what else could you pass on to them?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Well, I have studied and my student activity continues since I went to law school and then did the extension in philosophy and then my specialization in IP, and then my master's in civil law, and then my doctorate in commercial law, and then my post-doctorate experience again in civil law. And in all those experiences, I would not say that I was a kind of a teacher's pet, but I was really interested in every professor's lessons. And many of my professional experiences started as being a dedicated student and in being interested in participating in extracurricular activities, including participating as a listener to IP colloquiums and seminars.
Many of my important experiences were held abroad of Brazil at the late part of my deceased father's life. I had the custom to accompany him in every IP colloquium he participated in Portugal, Germany, Netherlands, and the United States of America. So, even as a listener, I gained so much information. I was also interested in publishing about those experiences with elder peers.
And publishing is a really important way of getting employers’ attention in the IP field, and there is no such prerequisite that one has to be a doctor to publish small pieces on IP. Generally, the experience of working with a professor in a co-authorship of papers on IP, even the simplest three-page papers could completely change the chances for a candidate applying to an internship or a traineeship. So,: I would say, even as a listener to participate in IP colloquiums sometimes is the best opportunity to enter the market.
Natalie Humsi: That's a very good idea. On this point, I just also want to mention that the WIPO Academy has various numbers of colloquiums and conferences for researchers where people can participate in or even just listen in and follow the discussions and debates. That could be helpful. That's a very good piece of advice there.
So now you are the leading partner of the law firm, and of course, you're a hiring manager for the prospective employees of your law firm. So when you are on the board, hiring people, what is something that you look for? What is something that is very distinguishable in an ideal candidate that can make someone stand out, not just on their CV, but when you meet them in an interview?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Well, there's some benefits to working in academia and as an attorney, since 90% of the attorneys in my law firm, 90% of the partners in my law firm were previously interns in the same firm. So usually we hire attorneys, who have had good experiences as interns and as trainees.
And how do I hire people to become interns and trainees? Well, usually I would have taught them in the university. They were my students. They were the students that held up in the top percentiles in a 50-pupil class. They were the students that were interested in writing, debating, researching and publishing while in law school.
And if they are successful in the internships, they will probably have a job proposition after that. And many of the IP firms that I know of in Brazil and abroad, well, they'd rather have a partner, a young junior attorney from the people that they know from before who were working part-time jobs like trainees and interns. So, I would say that first impressions count amazingly as a junior, or perhaps even during a summer internship.
Natalie Humsi: So to summarize: internships, languages, listening to colloquiums and research seminars, those are your tips. And of course, making a good impression, being a good student, and building a good network with your professors in law school are really the best ways forward if you want a career in IP in the private sector, in a law firm.
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: It is – and indeed having impressed your professor and receiving perhaps a letter of recommendation from IP professors, usually those open so many doors. I would say not only in Brazil but in South American countries as well, a letter of recommendation makes all the difference perhaps to having your first internship
But if you have your first internship opportunity and you fulfill it successfully, probably your career in IP will go normally in the same law firm that you started in. So, yes, this is really an important part. But the second tip I would give, especially for people that are still in the university such as in law schools or junior law schools, is to participate in IP research taking place inside the university.
Many universities in Brazil and abroad have a technological area that, well, files patents and develops inventions that will build startups. And many of these free research positions, because sometimes those positions are not even paid, are worthwhile because you will have the experience opportunity to work with elder peers not only as a lawyer, but in different areas of research. And these six months, four months, or even one year long research experiences sometimes are the first opportunity that a person will have in IP field, and those are really important.
Natalie Humsi: I'm also wondering for those who want to enter academia, as professors, maybe they're really just passionate about research and academia and going into that field. What advice would you give them?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Well, at least in Brazil, usually nowadays, best universities will not hire personnel for an academic professor position if you don't not have a doctorate. And having doctorates is an exercise of patience, since in Brazil, usually before you have a doctorate, you will have a master's, and before you have a master's, probably you have a specialization course. So this means that in Brazil, before disputing a position as a PhD professor in the academic field, you will have at least 10 to 12 years of formal student position. So that means that you are a really patient and resilient person.
But again, although academic positions are not directly responsible for people being rich while working in IP in Brazil, if you are an IP professor and you have a lot of publications and books, and you are impartial, and perhaps you are a lawyer, it complements your views on IP policy, your views on IP enforcement. And then you will construct a reputation in academia that could give you a lot of good clients in the area of professional private practice. So: if you choose both careers, the reputation you build in academia will be more important than you can imagine for your private practice.
But for those people that want to enter an academic position, I would say that you should invest in national and international experiences at the master's and doctorate levels, and that is urgent. You cannot really qualify the best positions in the best universities without at least having a master's. So that means 5 to 12 years of a lot of experience after your graduation.
Natalie Humsi: So they have to study really hard. Out of curiosity, have you ever hired an unexpected candidate? Where you, for example, on a selection board and it seemed like there was one candidate that would be the most likely best one for the job, but then for some reason or the other, you went with an unexpected pick? If that ever happened, why did you go with that decision?
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: Yes, that did happen in my academic experiences and in my private practice as well. Sometimes every two years, I have research projects that are extracurricular activities, and usually when I publish the selection pools, about 10 to 20 candidates appear, and most of the time, my favorite candidate is selected, but they opt out because they had participated in another competitions as well. And they opt to research with other professors instead. And sometimes, my second, third, fourth or fifth best choices (counter intuitively) actually are the best choices in the end for the position, because CV's in general, they are like makeup. They are not the real appearance of a person. They are storytelling that can be, well, interesting or not.
And many times, especially when you analyze objective criteria like general grades, perhaps the candidate had a really bad time in a subject and had a bad score, but their specific interests were not in that bad scoring topic area, but in IP. So again, CVs can be deceptive and that has happened in my experiences as a hiring manager as an academic and that has happened as an attorney.
Sometimes during internship traineeship applications in the law firm, among three or four candidates, it is the candidate with the best CV that turns out to be a lazy candidate, although they had made previous good choices, such as studying at the best universities or publishing with elder peers. When they have to do a task in another area, and in the IP field, you work with administrative, prosecution, consultancy and litigation activities, they are less motivated. So perhaps this young pupil only has interests in a part of the job. And again, you will have to deal with bureaucracy.
It’s better to propose candidate who is good with everything to be your partner in a long-time view, than a true specialist that only wants to do a small part of the job. So again, CVs are deceptive, and only people that have been selected will often have the opportunity to show if they hold up to the beautiful CV or if that was a kind of a “makeup” CV.
Natalie Humsi: Looking back to all what you said, so the main tips are, first of all, be patient, learn different languages from different roots, so that would be helpful. Having an internship experience is very helpful. Being a very good student and having a strong connection with professors is helpful and having kind of an interdisciplinary background or knowing a bit of different parts of the law field would be helpful than just a very, very narrow specialization when it comes to actually working in law, in IP law specifically.
Pedro Marcos Barbosa: IP has a great deal to do with art. So my grandmother, she was a conductor of music and my father besides being an attorney and being a professor, he was a professional musician as well and I'm an amateur musician. Many of the IP professionals I know: paint or they make sculptures or they are poets. They write books that are not law books. And having this love for art and being exposed to the theater, to cinema, to art expositions, that is so helpful to really understanding that the main point of IP is to, well, to fulfill and to stimulate the creators, not the middlemen, like attorneys and economists and physicians.
If you do not love art, it's really hard to have a fulfilling career in IP because you will never understand your client, you will never really understand an inventor and the people that make IP really an important branch of law and economics. So, you should explore something that's really different from the mainstream interests in economist and attorney careers, you should learn more from music and arts.
Natalie Humsi: You need an ingrained appreciation for innovation and creativity to work in a field that is servicing innovation and creativity, protecting IP rights and promoting people to be more innovative and creative and incentivizing them. That is true.
This brings us to the end of our classroom conversation for today. Thank you so much Pedro, and most importantly, thank you to our curious listeners for tuning in, and we'll catch you next time on Classroom Conversations.