Karen Lee: Welcome to Intellectual Property Matters. In this WIPO podcast, we explore the fascinating world of creativity, innovation and intellectual property. Let's listen, learn, and get inspired.
Natalie Humsi: Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's episode of Classroom Conversations, a WIPO Academy series, and I'm joined today by Anisia Zlătaru. She is the President of the European Law Students Association in the United Kingdom. Today, we'll talk about the future of the intellectual property law landscape from the perspective of a future lawyer. Thank you so much for joining us today, Anisia. So just to start off, besides being the president of the European Law Students Association, or ELSA for short, in the UK, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what your next goals are in life?
Anisia Zlătaru: Apart from being the president of ELSA UK, I'm actually Romanian, but I did move to the UK when I was sixteen. Currently, I just finished my Erasmus year in Belgium where I did the master's courses at KU Leuven, and now I'm eagerly awaiting my return to the UK. And in terms of future goals, I'm aiming to follow a master's in arbitration or commercial law and see where we go from there.
Natalie Humsi: You're hoping to be a future lawyer?
Anisia Zlătaru: Yes.
Natalie Humsi: That's amazing! So as a future lawyer, what do you think future lawyers need to specialize in? So you mentioned commercial law… Do you think intellectual property, or IP for short, is something that a lot of upcoming lawyers are interested in? Or does it factor into other aspects of law that are rising and gaining popularity amongst the future generations of lawyers?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think from the start, at university we're introduced to more digitalized tools. So as we step into the era of digital innovation, I think future lawyers would benefit from specializing in areas that bridge the gap between law and technology. And I think intellectual property law is undeniably one of the most exciting areas in this regard. And with the rise of disruptive technologies like blockchain, and augmented reality, and 3D printing, the protection of intellectual property has become very complex. And I think the upcoming lawyers are recognizing the need to understand the intricacies of IP law and the need to advise your clients or future clients on securing their innovations and navigating the digital landscape.
So yeah, I think the allure of working with cutting edge technologies and the opportunity to shape future innovations definitely makes intellectual property a highly sought after specialization among law students, and you can see that from the way students pick their modules in their final years. IP law is definitely becoming a very busy, lecture room.
Natalie Humsi: That's great! We love to hear it, and I'm also curious because the younger generations are very active on social media, and they're very engaged with a lot of creative content as well. And I know there's a lot of disruptive technology we can say playing into that for example, AI and ChatGPT, and so I don't know if that's also something that a lot of the young and upcoming lawyers are thinking about when it comes to IP and law in general?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think in terms of AI, they're definitely dipping their toes into that area because as students, they do want to maximize their efficiency. Let's put it that way. But I think there's also an urge to kind of make ChatGPT and all these tools efficient for both students and, you know, for marking and so on. I think they're definitely getting into AI and there's a lot of conversations about it in classrooms. So, yeah, it's definitely becoming a hot topic.
Natalie Humsi: And that links back to one of the topics that was addressed at the recent webinar series that WIPO and ELSA ran in June 2023. So I wanted to get your take on how that went and what was the feedback and experience of students also on the topics covered?
Anisia Zlătaru: So we powered this project so that we can allow other students to understand how the organization works and just to learn the basics of IP, the whole point was to empower the students to think critically and to think about the challenges and opportunities in this field. So we provided this platform together with WIPO, for students to interact with renowned experts and engage in real-world case studies and explore the nuances of IP law and beyond what is covered in traditional classrooms. Because in university, there's not so much about current issues being discussed, but more theory, and you know, learning the basics.
The feedback was really good, and they have asked when are we gonna do something else with IP and WIPO? So stay tuned for that. But there was a lot of positive feedback. They really enjoyed the push for discussions, and they actually requested a forum to follow-up after the webinar so they can further discuss the topics that they learned about. And we think it was very successful, and we are looking forward to the next one.
Natalie Humsi: And I'm curious if there was any topic that was addressed throughout the webinar series that you personally enjoyed or found very interesting or relevant? And what you felt was very practical and that you could use in the future in your master's degree or beyond in a future internship or work experience?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think all topics were very relevant and interesting and I really appreciated the take that each speaker took on each topic. Where starting from the basics, when Martha spoke about the basics of the treaties, the sectors of WIPO, going down to the blockchain of IP. I think they're all really relevant in that sense. And there were some students that asked for the contact information of the lecturers so that they can continue the discussions with then when writing their dissertation or thesis further on. So that is part of the discussion in that sense.
Natalie Humsi: Based on this experience and also what you mentioned earlier about the IP courses being the most popular and busy ones amongst law students at university, how do you think IP education and training can contribute to the formation of lawyers in general, as a future lawyer yourself?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think IP education and training plays a transformative role because it is a niche area from the law student's perspective. We have our basics: criminal, contract, and public law, and IP law is sitting right at the end of our degree. So education and training and the opportunities of exploring a career end up shaping the lawyers into well rounded professionals. And when they take in an understanding of IP law and the practical applications that equip law students with skills and knowledge that they will need further down their career.
So that's why initiatives, like the webinar series definitely strike an interest, and they, you know, some students actually shifted towards a more IP-related career after it because law students tend to go towards commercial law, and I think widening their horizons towards IP or to other areas, is helping them to achieve the career that they actually enjoy in life and are interested in. So I think it's important in the sense that IP is important to know as a general fact, but also because it's important for students to explore other areas, other than the ones that they are exposed to in university.
Natalie Humsi: At the WIPO Academy, we really like to engage the students and those who are learning about IP in the process of IP education. So we don't try to just have a top-down approach from the lecturers and IP experts. So I want to hear more about what ELSA thinks? What's next for ELSA?
This was a great opportunity to collaborate with the European Law Students Association UK. And I know that it's a very active platform and engages with other law students associations in different regions, so maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that and what the students/future lawyers are hoping for?
Anisia Zlătaru: Our annual competition, it was focused on IP and we also had the webinar series. Next year, we are diversifying the range of topics. We are focusing on human rights, commercial law, and law and sustainability. So we have a range of projects that are coming up. In terms of our audience, we definitely have extended it with this project. We had four countries present in the webinar series and also our collaboration with ALSA, the African Law Students Association, definitely allows us to enrich all students that want to engage with law in any particular way.
So there's a lot of projects coming up from the annual human rights campaign organized by all ELSA groups, to more national projects like our annual moot court competition and introducing Rule of Law Education (ROLE), which is a project addressed to general senior ROLEs where we teach them about the rule of law.
Natalie Humsi: That sounds very exciting. And so will you be involved in all of this next year or will your role change at ELSA? What is next for you?
Anisia Zlătaru: I've actually been re-elected as President, so I will be staying on the board to oversee and make sure that ELSA grows naturally and beautifully through its projects and through its network. So, I will be continuing and overseeing the projects and there are definitely conversations about a future project with WIPO.
Natalie Humsi: How actually did a young person like you first hear about WIPO? Like, when did this happen? How did that come about? Was it in class at university? Did someone tell you about it?
Anisia Zlătaru: So I heard about it through the actual possibility of going to WIPO. So ELSA has this project called ELSA Delegations where ELSA members can go to different organizations as a delegate because ELSA is an observer member of some institutions and organizations to train the delegates. They attend the conference, and they get the opportunity to network with diplomats and the representatives from each country. I applied for the WIPO delegation because I haven't had any courses on IP law, and I was very curious. And I thought what's best? How is it best to learn about IP other than from the organization itself and getting a real-life experience?
And at the beginning, it was a bit overwhelming because I didn't know how the organization works. I was in my second year, so it was a bit of a journey, but I was lucky because there was a delegate from an observer group next to me, and he was explaining the process and explaining the dynamics between the groups. That's how we powered the project. And also I attended a few receptions, which were really engaging and giving a bit of a more dynamic approach to conferences, which to a student that hasn't attended any conference at an international organization, they can seem quite like sitting down in a conference for days. But in reality, they are very dynamic, and I actually did enjoy it very much. It's a unique experience to attend them, so I do recommend people to attend if they can.
Natalie Humsi: And when was this? How long ago was this before it pushed you into setting up this webinar series with the WIPO Academy and learning more about IP? How long ago was it?
Anisia Zlătaru: There was a CDIP Conference in October last year, in 2022.
Natalie Humsi: Ah okay, so quite recent. And was there any any specific topic that was discussed at this Committee on Development and IP (CDIP) Conference that was particularly interesting to you that still sticks in your mind?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think the accent that they put on developing countries, because IP law is definitely a hot topic in Europe, but I think that way they approached it in countries that don't necessarily have access to technology, but they still focus on them and how they can bring them to the top was definitely something that I was interested in, and also the role of women in IP and role of food in IP. It was a lot of different takes that I didn't think of before coming, and then seeing that IP is actually everywhere and anywhere, it kind of gave me a full-on experience in this sense.
Natalie Humsi: I wanted to also ask in terms of practical skills and knowledge that you can apply, because really that's the focus of the WIPO Academy, we really want to build practical IP skills that people can use in real life. Is there a specific IP skill that you think is more interesting or more relevant to you or to those around you who are going to be future lawyers?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think critical thinking is the basic skill that all those students have and it definitely is involved in IP, but I think also creativity in IP is important because of thinking how the laws apply to each patent, copyright, and so on. So I think it develops the soft skills a lot in that sense, and that is what the feedback that we receive from our participants from the webinar in terms of stimulating them to look at IP from different perspectives, from a different speaker's point of view, was something that sparked their interest, and creativity, and critical thinking.
Natalie Humsi: I'm just wondering, do you have any anxieties or worries of things that could be a challenge coming up as a future lawyer?
Anisia Zlătaru: I think not thinking about something that scares you is not going to solve it. So we definitely push ourselves and our members to face their fears and through ELSA, that's what we do. We provide them with opportunities and ways to explore their career without any sort of pressure. But from a UK perspective, I would say the market is very competitive. There's a lot of law students in the UK, and not so many positions for lawyers. And I think that competition actually encourages students to explore other careers because sometimes you get on a law degree and you think the only way that I can finish this life is just to become a lawyer, but actually it's not true.
You can do so many other things, like, working at international organizations. And I think the UK is definitely starting to look at other options. So I've seen law students go into consultancy, working at the EU. Well, now not so much, but other organizations like the UN and so on. So apart from the stress of the typical training contract in the UK, which is very difficult to get. I think having an open mind and exploring other options, not because you're afraid of rejection, but because you are curious, and using opportunities like the WIPO courses that you offer online as a way for students to explore their careers in a more holistic sense rather than in a rushed, stressed, unpleasant journey that sometimes they go through.
Natalie Humsi: That's a good piece of advice. Well, I think we're near the end of our podcast episode, but before we wrap up, I wanted to ask if there's any final thoughts or tidbits that you wanted to share?
Anisia Zlătaru: I just wanted to thank WIPO for engaging with the the student association, and not just ELSA, but you know, being open towards working with students and being open to helping students explore different areas like IP, it helps a lot of them, and it opens opportunities that they didn't think they can open themselves. So thank you on behalf of all of our law students in the UK that have participated in the webinar series and that maybe will participate in future editions.
Natalie Humsi: That's amazing! Thank you so much for all of these great insights, Anisia. I'm sure our listeners, particularly those who are lawyers-in-training like yourself will appreciate all that you said and probably resonate with your perspective. So thank you again. And most importantly, thank you to our curious listeners for tuning in. And we'll catch you all next time on Classroom Conversations.